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Kosovo recognition update
Written by: Andrew Stroehlein
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Just a quick note to anyone trying to keep up with the Kosovo independence story, there is a handy site at kosovothanksyou.com/ listing the countries that have formally recognised, and those promising to recognise, the world's newest country. It's got a handy map, too.
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42 responses to “Kosovo recognition update”
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Journalist Andrew Stroehlein is Director of Media and Information for the International Crisis Group, the conflict resolution organisation, where he promotes responsible coverage of current and potential conflicts and helps draw attention to forgotten wars around the world.
20 Feb 2008 13:50:42 GMT
Kosovo recognation update
Kosovo recognition will burn out the all frozen conflict known in the world, Why to do that.20 Feb 2008 14:01:19 GMT
Why on earth is Reuters hosting the views of a partizan organization like the ICG? "conflict resolution organisation", a cursory glance at their 'papers' on Kosovo have always advocated and independent Kosovo. Their Board and 'special' advisors include/d such luminaries as Aahtesaari, General Wesely Clark, Abramowitz etc. etc.
The ICG is clearly and advocacy group. It's Balkans director James Lyons has his own blog on the western funded B92 (it certainly isn't a commercial operation) which spouts the same partizan propaganda. I'm shocked that Reuters does not seem to know this or deliberately turns a blind eye to such manipulation. Could it be because it is free? I repeat, got to the ICG website, look at the board page and the 'special advisors' at the bottom, the funders page and their 'papers' on Kosovo. It's a sham.20 Feb 2008 14:30:36 GMT
Um... all I did was post a link to a website that is tracking the recognition process. I didn't do that because my employer told me to, either.
As far as Kosovo is concerned, I was covering the story as an editor for Central and Eastern Europe back in 1999 and afterward -- well before my time with Crisis Group -- and I can tell you that after such massive ethnic cleansing, I personally don't think 90% of the people living in Kosovo would ever have tolerated living under Belgrade rule again. I am happy to work at an organisation that shares my memory and my view.20 Feb 2008 14:38:09 GMT
AlertNet has number of guest bloggers and we expect all of them to have opinions, some of them controversial. We invite or accept them as contributors on the basis that they have a clear engagement with the issues that AlertNet readers are interested in. Reuters does not endorse their views, as we make very clear in our "disclaimer" at the top and bottom of every post.
I think we should leave Andrew to reply about the ICG but they are one of AlertNet's content partners, as are Human Rights Watch or UNHCR. They will have particular viewpoints, for which they will take responsibility. AlertNet Moderator21 Feb 2008 11:56:56 GMT
Andrew,
I would like to see hard evidence of this so called "ethnic cleansing" please. It is quite easy to say something like that when you do not have the burden of proof. I do not recall any UN Resolution or an international court ruling that states it happened. It should be treated as hearsay. Ever heard of the term refugee? I think that more likely describes what happened. People leave war zones all across the world to stay out of harms way, especially the mass exodus of Albanians after, let me repeat that after NATO's illegal intervention. You claim 90% of the Albanians would not live under the rule from Belgrade correct? So why did the Albanians resort to terrorist activity to try and steal Kosovo away? Why could they not be more diplomatic in their approach like the Civil Rights protest's in the U.S. back in the 60's? Sure some violence erupted but not full scale terrorism. Also a side note, if you do not like the conditions of where you live, leave. After all they are called Albanians in reference to Albania. What is so wrong with living in Albania? Why do they refuse to live in their home land? Why did they leave Albania in droves, was it because Albania is one of the most corrupt places on the planet? You bet and maybe they should go back and try to fix the problems in Albania insteade of their horrible quest for the greater Albania.21 Feb 2008 15:39:11 GMT
If you asked any of the hundreds of thousands of people who left their homes back then why they were leaving, I doubt one of them would have said it was NATO's action. They were indeed getting out of harm's way -- the harm brought down upon them by Belgrade.
Your last paragraph is most disturbing, however. By that logic, all Serbs in Bosnia should "go back" to Serbia. I bet you agree with me that this is a foolish idea and that Bosnian Serbs should of course remain in Bosnia. Yet you suggest it for Kosovo Albanians...22 Feb 2008 10:12:53 GMT
The formation of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in 1995, a rag-tag rebel group financed by drug, arms and human trafficking, which made it to the US State Department's prestigious list of international terrorist organisations in 1998 - Osama bin Laden made three visits to Kosovo 1994-96, but which the West nonetheless supported in the "liberation" of Kosovo in 1998-99.
Not to mention since NATO arrived more than 150 Christian churches have been destroyed and this is the type of new nation the U.S./EU wants to support? If the sheep in the west only knew of the truth about Kosovo. Their will be a steep price to pay for this new U.S./EU colony, another 2 million will be lining up to get their welfare checks from the U.S./EU. Not to mention how many similar Kosovo type situations will erupt the world over. Once again the west has destabalized the world again, nice job.22 Feb 2008 10:17:34 GMT
Soon they will as protest's have erupted in Bosnia where the fear is the Serbs living there will want to declare independence from the Muslims and join Serbia.
This is the type of world we will have to face thanks to the globalist U.S./EU that have total disregard for international laws and treaties.22 Feb 2008 10:18:53 GMT
"If you asked any of the hundreds of thousands of people who left their homes back then why they were leaving, I doubt one of them would have said it was NATO's action. They were indeed getting out of harm's way -- the harm brought down upon them by Belgrade.
Your last paragraph is most disturbing, however. By that logic, all Serbs in Bosnia should "go back" to Serbia. I bet you agree with me that this is a foolish idea and that Bosnian Serbs should of course remain in Bosnia. Yet you suggest it for Kosovo Albanians..." If what you say was so widespread then why hasn't it been brought up before the UN Security Council of the UN General Assembly or better yet an international court of law? Again it's easy to claim something when you do not have to prove it. As for my last paragraph, I will give you a great analogy. You have a job but the leadership does not listen, safety is a concern and it is filthy there, 3 things can come out of this. One is approach the leadership and demand changes or seek outside help with governmental or international agencies, etc... second you could strike and refuse to work until changes are made and last simply leave and seek out a better opportunity. Nobody is forcing you to work for that company. With Kosovo same could apply. The Albanians were not interested in seeking copperation with Belgrade, they wanted the Greater Albania and that is why they resorted to terrorism. Recall the Rambouilett peace accord before NATO intervened, have you ever read the back Appendix's of that document? I doubt it but go ahead and read it and find out for yourself the U.S. and the Albanians were not interested in peace, they sought war because it clearly stated in that text that NATO would deploy its forces throughout Serbia, now name any sovereign nation that would sign such an accord? The Greater Albania is the source of the problems in the Balkans, you cannot refute that! The KLA in Kosovo and the NLA is FYR-Macedonia with connections to Osama himself are the sources of the problems in this region, you cannot deny this.22 Feb 2008 10:20:05 GMT
I agree with Mr. Sroehlein, Mr. oxi. I believe you are bringing your own propaganda-driven ideals to a news page, and are intentionally skewing the truth in order to satisfy your own justification. The reason why the Kosovar Albanians are not "going back to Albania" is because they happened to have settled outside the borders of Albania when Albania declared independence back in 1912, regardless; my point is, no one wants to leave the properties of their great-great ancestors. As for the refugees, that was, in fact, a direct response to the ethnic cleansing that the Serbs practiced on them in '99 (which coincidentally resembled the same actions Serbia exercised on Bosnians in '92-'93). So, no other proof can be more conclusive. When someone is trying to cause harm to you, you either run away, or fight back. So this "terrorism" you speak of has been mis-interpreted for you. It was a nothing more than an act of self defense (kind of like the Revolutionaries back in the 1770's).
I would personally wish to congratulate the Kosovars (of all ethnic backgrounds) of their independence, and I thank all of the international community for their support (being an Albanian myself, that comes naturally). Thank You22 Feb 2008 21:58:04 GMT
Just a few independant thoughts: Very sad that Kosovo is being annexed by infiltrators who came from a neighbouring country during turbulent times. Tendencies by several governments to recognize it are fed by commercial interests, the earnings from building an infrastructure, finding cheap labour nearby, finding an alibi for their idea of democracy. WAKUNA.
23 Feb 2008 12:10:33 GMT
Of course, Kosovo deserves an independence after all the oppression that they've had from Serbia and going all the way back to the Ottoman Empire. The "holy land" that Serbia uses is just a propaganda. In 1389, all Balkans forces (including Albanians) fought against ottomans. At a time there was no concept of a nation. In 1912 when Ottoman Empire collapsed, Kosovo was given to Serbia (thanks to uncle Russia). Anyway...that's just a history. We cannot ignore the revoke of Kosovo Autonomy in 1989 by the Milosevic's regime, and the ethnic cleansing that happened in 1999. Everything has its own consequences. Serbia should accept the reality and move on. Both Kosovo and Serbia should work hard to fulfill their standards , develop economy and get into EU as soon as possible. With Kosovo's Independence the World closes the chapter of the bloody Balkans.
Cheers,23 Feb 2008 15:28:58 GMT
Betim, their is one problem with your solution. Ever heard of international law, sovereignty or UN Resolution 1244?
Your logic if I understand it is to violate international law, sovereignty and ignore the United Nations. Is this what you seek, no rules or laws, do as you please around the world? You must like anarchy. Just a friendly reminder, Serbia negotiated and let Montenegro become independent just a few years ago, so why the hell can't the west sit down at a table and seek a diplomatic solution like the Serbs have been asking for? Oh wait, reminds me of Rambouillet and how the U.S. was not interested in peace they sought war. Just read the back appendix of the Rambouillet text and you will understand the true intentions of the west in the Balkans.25 Feb 2008 10:03:53 GMT
Sadin Selmani, let me get this straight, you and the author support international terrorism? You look the other way with KLA atrocities but will demonize the Serbs like the globalist western governments do?
Here are some facts about the Kosovo situation. This whole drive for independence started from the Greater Albania, a pipe dream from the Kosovo Liberation Army that not only did Osama himself came to visit in Kosovo not once but 3 times from 1994-96, this horrible group made it to the U.S. State Dept.'s terrorist list in 1998. In other words the U.S. government along with NATO openly supported, armed and bombed on behalf of known terrorists with ties to Osama! Makes you wonder which side the U.S. is on with regards to terrorsim. Further, the commander of the KLA (which has been dis-banded by UN Resolution 1244, if you care to understand international law?) was Hashim Thaci, the current Prime Minister of Kosovo and the poster boy for Kosovo independence! So let me get this straight, you and the author of this article openly support international terrorists? I want to make this clear since you openly support Kosovo independence without understanding what the Greater Albania is nor who the KLA was or even the PM of Kosovo today last job title! By supporting Kosovo independence you are against international law, national sovereignty, the United Nations, support known terrorists and are anti-Christian in reference to the over 150 Christian churches that have been destroyed since NATO arrived and did nothing to prevent their destruction. Do us all a favor and educate yourself on the history of the region before you join the latest western bandwagon. You obviously know nothing about the region nor respect international law.25 Feb 2008 10:04:55 GMT
Andrew Stroehlein, all those nations that have recognized Kosovo independence are doing so in violation of international law, UN Resolution 1244 and an independent Kosovo has NOT been recognized by the United Nations!
The U.S. and some top EU nations do NOT represent the world community nor are they defenders of international law. You obviously back those nations that seek to destroy the UN and create a new world order where the UN Charter no longer applies but what the mighty nations seek to apply. The Serbs in their defense are the first nation to stand up to the globalists and who faught a known international terror group in the KLA while the west and NATO supported known terrorists with ties to Osama himself. This is a fact and you know it! Greater Albania dream by the KLA is the source of the Kosovo problem we are facing today. Serbia is a democracy while Kosovo is being run by former terror commanders and the sad truth is those nations that support Kosovo independence are turning their backs to democracy and supporting a regime born from terror that will never make it on their own without massive welfare from the EU let alone the Fact that over 150 Christian churches have been destroyed since Serb forces left Kosovo intact and NATO moved in. Facts, look them up.25 Feb 2008 10:10:28 GMT
Since Andrew, you're such a "people person" concerned with ethnic cleansing and other forms of oppression, maybe you and Crisis Group should have proposed some great solutions for Darfur, Rawanda and other like crisis spots like the great idea of Kosovo independence. Yeah, that really solved everything.
26 Feb 2008 14:34:33 GMT
Rob,
Your not going to get an honest answer from him. If you support a radical Islamic terror group backed by Osama himself, do you think they really care about morals and values like international law? By the way while the NATO governments were screaming 100,000 dead in Kosovo with no proof to back those claims which later dropped to 10,000 of which still has not been proven where officlial totals put it at around 2,200 dead of unknown origins (they could have been Serbs, Albanians or KLA fighters), yes NATO intervened for 2,200 dead while around the same time Rwanda saw 800,000 dead!28 Feb 2008 10:20:02 GMT
oxi , from my understanding you are greek so i understand your hate for the albanians.
Just 1 question why didnt the greek cyprus stayed with greece ? same religion, same race, same language, so why they got independent ? Ohh and your problem is religion, both you and serbs are the christian fanatics ! Im albanian and truth is 80% of people in albania dont care about religion! When I was in greece i was called muslim! lol, i mean when you ask somebody what are you the aswer should be ie.caucasian not what religion you are coz as far as i am concerned religion has no color, you cant see it or touch it, its belif and its private for each person. You greeks are still ruled and brainwashed by the church , you are no better than foundamentalists. Ohh and remind yoursel that it was USA that heleped Greece many years back to be real democracy and avoid civil war, and also if it wasnt for USA , you would have been wiped out by Turkey (not that I fancy them). Respect!01 Mar 2008 11:45:50 GMT
When you destroy 150 churches, it is a holy war! The KLA being a terrorist organization until UN Resolution 1244 banned them recieved money and support from Islamic charity groups. To say the Albanians are not motivated by religious aspirations or trying to relive the Ottoman Empire is just plain stupid on your part.
The Serbs were defeating your KLA brothers so you had to beg for U.S. involvement not on merit but by capaign contributions and then the most corrupt alliance in the world NATO minus Greece attacked. Why can't you guys fight your own battles? Hmmmmm while the Albanians joined with the fascist Nazis during world war 2, Greece and Serbia faught with the allies and Greece gave the alies their first victory on October 28, 1940 where yes the Albanians and Italiens were driven out of Greece to where they belong, Albania. Greece got the help from the Brits after world war 2 and then NATO convinced Greece to join the alliance shortly thereafter fearing the Soviets might take control of either Greece or Turkey. Yes the U.S. such an honorable country supported a military dictatorship over democracy in Greece during the late sixties and early seventees where finally President Clinton on a trip to Greece formally apologized for such a stupid mistake! A student uprising on November 17th, 1973 led to Greece becoming democratic in modern times from monarchy, learn your history! Greece is a respected nation the world over, don't get jealous of her! Now how many Mosque's have been built since the entire Serb 3rd Army left Kosovo intact back in 1999? Yeah and its not about religion? Your the fool if you cannot see that? Respect has to be earned!04 Mar 2008 16:53:36 GMT
Thank you Oxi.
Just to clarify, I'm Serbian from Pristina/Serbia. I want to ask my Albanian friends about some facts. How many Serbs they have killed and dislodged during Second World War from Metohija (Albanians called themselves Balist at that time and fighting together with Germans, Italians and Bulgarians on their side)? Why Tito forbid to the descendant of the dislodged Serbian families to come back to their homes in Kosovo? How many Serbian women you raped from 1974 till 1989 while you had Albanian Autonomy in the Province? How many Police and Army Forces you have killed during the same period? How many Serbs and other non-Albanians you dislodged during â80? And finally, if you say that you have problems just with Serbs, WHY all other Nations (Turks, Bosnians, Croats, Gypsies) left Kosovo after 1999?04 Mar 2008 16:55:43 GMT
Oxi,
look at history before you use your one sided nationalistic views. First of all not all Albanians sided with the Nazis, a lot of them fought agaist them. Those who did because the Allies split more than half of the Albanian inhabitated lands to Greece and Yugoslavia. The Italians and Nazis gave it back to them. (not that I'm a nazi or anything) Also the remaining Albania was going to be split again to Greece and Yugoslavia a few years later, being stopped by Austria-Hungary. Since the areas were of former Ottoman Empire, or the Byzantine Empire earlier, there were no "modern" borders to claim just ethnic divides within the Ottoman Empire's vilayets. There were free Serbian areas outside the ottoman empire but they claim that southern ottoman areas are their heartland? They came from the Carpathians in the 9th century. I was in Greece last summer, and I saw that most of the population is really radical christian, just like radical muslims in a way. There was not a lot of diff! erence beteween them and some "terrorist" turks or arabs. There was always prayer before school starts, before people went to work, before institutions began, even before the anthem. What happened to separation between church and state. A lot of policies are reflected to the orthodoxy. If religion runs daily lives of people then it is no different than Taliban and Iran Islamic Republic. Greeks or Serbs will not like anyone thats not a christian (preferrably orthodox). Its true that most Albanians do not care about religion. My dad is Othodox (just like you) and my mom is Bektashi Muslim. But they care less for them. How many inter-religious marriages are there in greece or Serbia? How is Greater Abania different from the Megali Idea or Greater Serbia that greeks and serbs still have? You tried to annex Cyprus and (Ionia earlier), killed turks and than Turkey opened a whole can of whoopass. They called for the UN to help. Greeks and Serbians are intolerant of minorities and they want to be part of a multiethnic union of EU (greece already is).05 Mar 2008 08:38:37 GMT
I see a lot of passion for what you believe in. Is see these words and stereotypical views on various types of people. (Eg: the USA government automatically stands and speaks for ALL westerners). Just displays ignorance and limited education on the speakers behalf. Oh: the statment 'respect has to be earned' - again shows very limited knowledge on basic common decency towards fellow humans. Oops my bad, my parents taught me basic common decency towards fellow beings. Also, how ignorant stereotypical views of ethnic/racial/religious groups allows such tyrrany to continue to this day, and how such persons use religion / colour/ dress etc against persons they don't like the look of. An example being the northern irish protestants and cathoics both used religion as an excuse to murder each other. (Sounds familiar?) It wasn't until both sides felt enough tragedy that they finally said, enough was enough. I believe elements (not! ALL the US govt and it's citizens), within the US were making a roaring trade with firearms. So of course lost out when the fighting stopped. So they then had to find another customer to make money from. Let me see, ok there is the trouble of which you all speak - someone is making a lot of money from all this and I'm sure they would do anything to ensure the fighting continues. (A few murders of women and babies is nothing to them. Again those people have no basic common decency/morals). There is Africa too - quite a bit of money to be made there. Then there is the stereotypical person male / female in a group who is just itching for a fight / to kill / to exercise their narsissistic right to bully and assume power over as many people as possible - logically for no apparent reason - and try to excuse their brutality because that person 'is not like them'. To do this they then convince the ignorant bystanders that: all christians are bad, all westerners are evil, all! muslims are bad, blah blah blah. And of course this bully gets enough ignoramuses to go along with them and whoopass you've got ethnic cleansing etc. Pity there isn't a section in International Law allowing for the appropriate and immediate disposal of these types of persons. Personnally they shouldn't be allowed to breathe. (Non objective statement). So Oxi, maybe you should run for politics in your country. It might first pay to get educated on the fact that not all westerners agree with /like Mr Bush, and are hoping that either Mrs Clinton or Mr Obama get in power soon. If you choose to dispell the myth that all westerners are like Mr Bush, you might actually learn that some westerners, muslim/ christian /hindu/ buddhist (heaven forbid- atheist), are actually decent people and would go out of their way to help a fellow human being. Then when and if you get in a position of power or politics in your country, you may be able to have the maturity to effectively commun! icate and work WITH people not like you. Hopefully to make this world a better place. Good luck.
05 Mar 2008 14:32:54 GMT
Objective Viewer,
The reason I am harsh on U.S. citizens is because they have the power to remove Bush from office. Americans are lazy and do not understand how their government works to say the least. They are spoon fed their 5 minute news spot from the corporate media. They react to pictures and not hard facts on the ground. They could not find Kosovo on a map if they tried. Serbia 1999 proved to me how the U.S. government lies, fabricates and cover-ups things. Iraq 2003 proved how gullable U.S. citizens are likewise as well as after 9/11. The U.S. media shows pictures of celebrating Albanians in Kosovo and reports of past Serbian 'ethnic cleansing', bla bla bla and fails to report international law or talks about sovereignty. This goes back to 1999 of attacking Serbia where the media again ignores the NATO Treaty and the UN Charter so U.S. citizens get this impression that a nation can do as it pleases because they had awakened on the wrong side of the bed. Their are rules to follow and Reuters and other corporate media sites like this that get their marching orders from the U.S. government have proven they are partial in their reporting.05 Mar 2008 14:35:34 GMT
Mikel,
Albanians sided with the Nazis during world war 2, get over it. They also dised with Osama today, get over it. Separation of church and state? Since when is Greece suppose to look like the U.S.?For your information the U.S. is an atheist country, it has no religious connections today even you know it was created by religion. Greece is 98% one religion, Greek Orthodox and when you have that kind of numbers, the church will play a role in the government. By the way, why is their a cross on the Greek flag? The reason is the Orthodox church is what saved the Greek heritage, the language and customs from the enslavement under the Ottoman Turks. The church had to go underground like in caves and on mountain cliffs and out of the reach of the Muslims. Without the church Greece would have been lost. So as respect for this the church and the government of Greece work together. Greece is 98% one religion, you have to expect this. And comparing Greek Orthodoxy to Islam with Taliban or Iran, you are a fool. Greece has the finest medium sized military in the world and I have not seen them act in a arrogant manner like from the Taliban or the U.S. around the world. Did you bother to know that Greece is also a NATO member? There are disputes with Turkey and Greece has challenged the Turks to the ICJ but Turkey for some reason refuses to go to court, hmmmm. Do not ever compare the original Catholic faith with radical elements of Islam! Greece is a respected member of the international community, Turkey and Iran are not and nor is the Albanians!05 Mar 2008 20:59:12 GMT
just a quick one, as I'm noting a disturbing pattern of bullish commentary to anything published here and find most of the mud slinging from one entrenched position to another quite futile and frustrating to read: Turkey is a member of NATO as well. If you challenge people to check facts, check them yourself.
06 Mar 2008 16:57:52 GMT
oxi, Orthodoxy is not the Original catholic faith. It used to be called Christianity before they split. Their "originals" are judaism, and ever older one Persian Zoroastrianism. Make some research before making remarks.
Greeks are well known not to respect other ethnicities, religions and human rights. Greece has been criticized over and over again by the UN and EU. How come greece is a well respected international cammunity and wants to be part of an international organization when it clearly sees others as inferior? You have to respect others just like they respect you. And Greek constitution "protects" the right of religion, while it imprisons other religious people for gathering to celebrate their religion? Immigrants, Turks, Roma, ethnic slavo-macedonians, Arvanites all are regarded as 2nd class citizens or lack of citizenship and recognition. Church is not the only answer to guide the people. You said ("Greece is 98% one religion, you have to expect this.") Its less than that because there is no recognition of other religions. Anyone thats not orthodox is abused. There are also crosses in many other flags too if you noticed, England, Norway, Swiss, Finland, Denmark etc. They respect minorities and other religions. Greece is the birthplace of democracy, but somehow they don't enforce it outside thier ethnic people. And they don't use their military wrongly on others anymore because will be severe reprecussions from the EU. Last time they fought they were utterly destroyed by Turkeys armies. My uncle fought on the greek side and was wounded. His best friends died on his side. And you have to have separation between church and state like France, Germany, Czechs, US etc. Truly if religion is entrenched in government then the political views of the state will be severely restricted just like Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. US is not atheistic by any means. It is a melting pot of cultures. There is no more fundamentalist christians like evangelicans, mormons, etc. etc. in America. If there was not separation between church and state (which it barely is) then crusades and religious wars wouldve been done in muslim countries like in the past. As for Kosovo, they woulve been just fine as part of Serbia IF their rights were respected which for decades were oppressed. How can you trust people that gave autonomy and then revoked it from you and burned your houses, removed you from your lands. Kosovars were happier during Tito era than ever before. If you mistreat people they WILL fight back. Look at Cyprus and Ionian wars my friend.06 Mar 2008 22:46:09 GMT
FCK,
The truth is the only reason Turkey is a NATO member and somewhat respected by the U.S. is because of their geographical location and that they buy billions of $$$ of U.S. weapons systems. That is pretty shallow if you ask me! If Turkey was not favored geographically or it did not buy U.S. weapons, they would have been black-listed and blend in with other Islamic nations in the middle east. Ever wonder why the EU has yet to accept them in? Look into it...07 Mar 2008 15:03:24 GMT
Mikel,
"As for Kosovo, they woulve been just fine as part of Serbia IF their rights were respected which for decades were oppressed. How can you trust people that gave autonomy and then revoked it from you and burned your houses, removed you from your lands." After June 10, 1999 couldn't that be said of the Albanians/NATO? You bet! I recall over 200,000 Serbs evicted from their homes and over 150 Christian churches destroyed by Albanians under the watch of NATO troops! Kosovo, what Clinton said it would be a multi-ethnical province has become an almost pure Albanian one! So much for living together after June 10, 1999! By the way if Greece was utterly destroyed by Turkey, why is Greece still around? Remember Turkey invaded Greek territory, on my mothers side our family used to live in western Turkey until they evicted most Greeks, she found refuge on Samos and was protected by Greek forces. Turkey is trying to relive the old Ottoman Empire while Greece has been a peaceful tourist destignation for most Europeans! Like I said why does Turkey refuse to take their claims to the International Court of Justice as Greece has requested? I also like to note that it is Turkish fighters that infiltrate Greek airspace on a regular basis, now why is that?10 Mar 2008 11:04:43 GMT
Here is the full text of the NATO Treaty:
The North Atlantic Treaty Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949 The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments. They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area. They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty : Article 1 The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Article 2 The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them. Article 3 In order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack. Article 4 The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened. Article 5 The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . Article 6 (1) For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer. Article 7 This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security. Article 8 Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty. Article 9 The Parties hereby establish a Council, on which each of them shall be represented, to consider matters concerning the implementation of this Treaty. The Council shall be so organised as to be able to meet promptly at any time. The Council shall set up such subsidiary bodies as may be necessary; in particular it shall establish immediately a defence committee which shall recommend measures for the implementation of Articles 3 and 5. Article 10 The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession. Article 11 This Treaty shall be ratified and its provisions carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes. The instruments of ratification shall be deposited as soon as possible with the Government of the United States of America, which will notify all the other signatories of each deposit. The Treaty shall enter into force between the States which have ratified it as soon as the ratifications of the majority of the signatories, including the ratifications of Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the United States, have been deposited and shall come into effect with respect to other States on the date of the deposit of their ratifications. (3) Article 12 After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security. Article 13 After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation. Article 14 This Treaty, of which the English and French texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Government of the United States of America. Duly certified copies will be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of other signatories.10 Mar 2008 11:05:18 GMT
Oxi,
"After June 10, 1999 couldn't that be said of the Albanians/NATO? You bet! I recall over 200,000 Serbs evicted from their homes and over 150 Christian churches destroyed by Albanians under the watch of NATO troops!" You Reap what you Saw. Serbs fled due to war and retribution that were inflicted by Serbia to Albanians for a very long time. They are afraid to come back due to those retributions. I recall 1.5 millon albanians were evicted from their homes in 1999, their houses burned, mosques destroyed. And under UN troops didn't serbs kill thousands of bosniaks in Srebrenica? What the albanians did to churches and serbs was wrong and NOT justified by any means. However Kosovar Albanians have bent backwards want the displaced serbs back. Old wounds need time to heal. "By the way if Greece was utterly destroyed by Turkey, why is Greece still around? Remember Turkey invaded Greek territory, on my mothers side our family used to live in western Turkey until they evicted most Greeks, she found refuge on Samos and was protected by Greek forces. " Greek (troops) were utterly destroyed by turkish forces. Greeks also ethnically cleansed turks, roma, bulgarians, albanians, slavomacedonians since the First Balkan war to Cyprus war. Who started the Cyprus war you think? It was the military junta that ruled Greece. There were greeks on western turkey, but there also were turks in greece that got evicted by greeks. Because of the armistice and the treaty of Lausanne turks were evicted from greko areas and vice versa for greeks in Anatolia. ("Inter-Allied commission in the Yalova-Gemlik peninsula, in their report of the 23rd May 1921, during the Greek occupation of western Anatolia, wrote that: " A distinct and regular method appears to have been followed in the destruction of villages, group by group, for the last two months, which destruction has even reached the neighbourhood of the Greek headquarters. The members of the Commission consider that, in the part of the kazas of Yalova and Guemlek occupied by the Greek army, t! here is a systematic plan of destruction of Turkish villages and extinction of the Moslem population. This plan is being carried out by Greek and Armenian bands, which appear to operate under Greek instructions and sometimes even with the assistance of detachments of regular troops.")) "Turkey is trying to relive the old Ottoman Empire while Greece has been a peaceful tourist destignation for most Europeans! " No turk wants the return of the ottoman empire. Qemalism has been embedded into national psyche of Turkey, so the return of the empire is impossible under these frameworks. Have tyou ever seen the greek turkish borders? A turk from Izmir can piss on the Agean and it will fall on the Greek side. Only 6 nautical miles separate eachother in the Agean. Also Greek fighters do the same in Turkish Areas. We can go on this forever and not reach an agreement. You have to see both sides of the story. There have been murder and attrocities on both sides that is WAR. Get over it. Greece lost Smyrna, the Turks lost their empire, Bulgaria lost Macedonia and Kavalla, Serbs lost everything except Voivodina, Albanians lost land during Balkan wars, Romania lost Moldavia, Hungary lost Transylvania etc. etc. each country wants to be where thay have been on their zenith. Im sure Greece would love to have Alexander the Great's Empire but your diadochiai lost it. Get over it, work together, respect each other and as Jesus said Love thy neighbor and show the other cheek. Revenge is not a christian thing. Remember on the cross Jesus forgave everybody both Jew and Gentile. Isn't it time for you to forgive?10 Mar 2008 16:01:37 GMT
"I recall 1.5 millon albanians were evicted from their homes in 1999, their houses burned, mosques destroyed."
Got hard evidence of this? It is easy to claim but do you have hard evidence or are you just believing whatever NATO told was going on? Hmmm explain to me why NO nation in the world recognizes the illegal military occupation of northern Cyprus? The REAL Cyprus is a member of the EU, now what is so wrong with the evil Turkish side? Also why is there a wall still on the island? Because of Turkish aggression and pro-military stance is why. Turkey is still considered an evil nation because of its religious persecution of not only Christians but Kurds as well. Journalists are not even free to critisize the government or they are arressted. Ever heard of the Grey Wolves? No wonder Turkey is having so many problems joining the EU, they cannot even qualify for minimal standards. Their military needs to also stay out of governmental affairs and become a true democratic nation. "Revenge is not a christian thing." Looks like revenge must be a Muslim thing! After all you said it was war right and your KLA terrorists lost so their Greater Albania dream should be buried but you want to carry that on, are you sure you follow what you speak? I will not rest until the Prime Minister of Kosovo and his KLA brothers are all arrested and made to pay for their crimes as terrorists!10 Mar 2008 20:17:22 GMT
Oxi,
Are you serious? There is no hard evidence on the expulsion of Kosovars? Where have you been, stuck in a cathedral under a priects robes? It was all over the news. I went and saw the camps myself in Korca, Kukes and Macedonia. But you may just have seen the news from radical orthodox news stations. Its like me asking for Hard evidence that Turks evicted greeks from Anatolia. Do you believe what old greek documents told you, because thats the only source? Just stupid remarks. Make some research and be openminded about things around you. I do NOT want a Greater Abania, nor envoked it to happen. The future is in the EU. So was Serbia future until they wrecked it. U r a new generation greek, I don't understand the main hatred you have for Albanians. It may be former wars, religion, brainwashing or just plain stupidity. People like you makes me embarrased to be Christian Orthodox, and muslim terrorists to be a muslim. Thats why I am now Atheist. You have made this into a holy war and its just stupid. Hellenes were known for their logic, you should apply it if theres anything left there. Look at both sides of the fence.11 Mar 2008 09:34:18 GMT
Andrew Stroelhein said (item 3) "... I can tell you that after such massive ethnic cleansing, I personally don't think 90% of the people living in Kosovo would ever have tolerated living under Belgrade rule again." While I agree with the conclusion, I strongly oppose that the reason is "... such massive ethnic cleansing". I am Serb and therefore I would rather use London's Daily Mail as a source to clarify the above false presumption. Daily Mail published in May 1999 an article with photos of the huge refugee camp in Macedonia near the border with Kosovo. There were some 30,000 refugees and the reporter interviewed number of excited people who were expecting the following day when they would be transferred to the country which offered them hospitality. However, the next day, there was a big photo on the front page of Daily Mail showing thousands of tents without a single person under the shocking title "30,000 refugees disappeared! !" Late previous night refugees learnt that they would be taken to Turkey, instead to Western Europe and they all calmly returned to their homes.
I am probably the last person in the world who would try to defend Milosevic's regime methods (not only against Albanians) but for the sake of truth I will say that on Kosovo one oppression replaced the opposite one and it was going in circles for decades. When Kosovo had full autonomy, I met the Board of Directors of Trepca, the biggest company in the province and all members and the chairman, were Albanians. When I asked very basic questions, what was the annual total revenue and total export, they called for two Serbs, I remember their names, Zivkovic and Stefanovic, who knew the answers. Back to the ethnic cleansing, but this time to the opposite one, eight years of KFOR mandate could not ensure that non-Albanians can return to their homes. Those handful ones of hundreds of thousands refugees who dared to return to Albanian majority areas must live behind barbed wires, under 24h armed protection. These circumstances, in Kosovo case, seem to be out of the term "oppression" and rather fall within the term "small technical obstacles". well hidden behind glossy bureaucratic reports on "continuous improvement". None of the governments, which recognized independence of Kosovo, raised question whether this new country will even try to resolve this issue. It seems US sponsorship was sufficient that just another promise of Kosovo government makes everybody happy. In my view, USA urged Albanians into independence as quickly as possible in order to avoid the answer to the unpleasant question of legality of setting up a huge military base in Kosovo, still at the time, on Serbian territory, without asking and getting permission. Regarding ICG, it is truly compromising that the opening article on Kosovo states that Serbs have never lived in Kosovo!? So much for "mediators"!11 Mar 2008 15:50:54 GMT
"There is no hard evidence on the expulsion of Kosovars? Where have you been, stuck in a cathedral under a priects robes? It was all over the news."
Again where is the actual evidence? You obviously believe what you are being told even from the corporate western media, you have just proven this with that statement. Again hard evidence please. I noticed operation storm was back on the news again but then again in your biased opinion, only Serbs committed crimes, not the Bosnians, Croats nor those pesky Albanians... You say you do not want a Greater Albania but guess what independence of Kosovo is bud? It is the first step in the Greater Albania, the dream of KLA terrorists. Nice try to run around it. I do not have a hatred for Albanians, I have a hatred for terrorists like the KLA and NLA, THEIR IS A DIFFERENCE! You support terrorism as well as a few western nations by accepting Kosovo independence, you cannot say otherwise because Hashim Thaci is the former commander of the KLA, a KNOWN terror organization, read the facts bud! Also, who says this was not a religious conflict? You have Muslims (radical with terror connections) living in Christian lands, it was not Serbia's fault that a radical Islamic terror group rose up and threatened Serbia's sovereignty now was it! The KLA instigated atrocities and the Serbs responded, it is like saying the KLA drew first blood and that they did. Kosovo is part of Serbia and UN Resolution 1244 states that, read it please. But then again you join your western law breaking nations that ignore international law and treaties just like northern Cyprus, when will people like you ever learn! The EU is the future? I guess if you want a group of nations that does not know how to read international law and treaties nor understands what sovereignty is. Wait, the EU is not a nation nor is it a part of the United Nations so they should be treated as such! The EU has to realize that nations have sovereignty and that international laws and treaties are in place. The EU cannot do as they please. If the EU is the future, they may God help us all.11 Mar 2008 15:52:12 GMT
Gordon Brown's support for Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence should surprise and disappoint people in equal measure. Surprise because, as Prime Minister, he failed to discuss the matter in any depth in the Parliament before he made this announcement. And disappoint because this ill-thought-out move breaks international law, creates a dangerous precedent and gives succour and hope to every crackpot secessionist group in the world.
This latest Government move has sent out the message that if secessionists fight hard enough or are successful in their work of ethnic cleansing, they will be rewarded at the EU diplomats, table. Mr Brown is basically saying that the most violent bullyboy wins and the last military victor takes all; but what he should be telling the Albanians and the Serbs is that Kosovo's status should be resolved by negotiation and under international law. The Government doesn't seem to realise what it is walking into in Kosovo. The Balkans area is covered by a volcanic range of simmering hostilities which have erupted and can erupt again at any time. Conflict is this area is not new, for hostilities between Christian Serbs and Albanians (the vast majority of whom are Muslims) have been ongoing in Kosovo for many centuries. The peoples of this region have intermittently lived at peace and enmity for the best part of 500 years. No side in this affair has clean hands but that is no reason for the British Government to reward the latest and most successful perpetrator of ethnic cleansing in Europe, the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). The Serbs have been in Kosovo since the seventh century. It is is the geographical cradle of their civilisation, attested to by the plethora of Christian monasteries and churches which dot its landscape. And what about the Serbs who lived here? They have fought for centuries to defend European and Christian civilisation. It was at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389 that they fought (70,000 of them to the death) to keep the Islamic Ottoman Empire from rolling over the rest of Europe. The Serbian people have been a bulwark against Islamic expansion into Europe for many centuries. It was the Serbian people who opposed the aggression of Germany in the First World War and the rise of Nazism in World War II.12 Mar 2008 11:53:30 GMT
Retired Major General Lewis MacKenzie commanded UN Troops during the Bosnian war,said, âThe Kosovo-Albanians have played us like a Stradivarius. We have subsidized and indirectly supported their violent campaign for an ethnically pure and independent Kosovo. We have never blamed them for being the perpetrators of the violence in the early '90s and we continue to portray them as the designated victim today in spite of evidence to the contrary. When they achieve independence with the help of our tax dollars combined with those of bin Laden and al-Qaeda, just consider the message of encouragement this sends to other terrorist-supported independence movements around the world.â
18 Mar 2008 11:46:23 GMT
I see the west will condemn China for using troops and tanks to quell violence in Tibet yet what is NATO using in Kosovo?
The same darn thing except they are using helicopter gunships (to kill scores of civilians?) but as usual the west will excuse itself because they have an obligation to maintain peace and stability then again what do you think China is trying to do in Tibet! DOUBLE STANDARD! Go Serbs!19 Mar 2008 14:52:05 GMT
I am a stupid Greek.I dont get any of your theories or references to treaties.I think simply. If i build another room for my house and invite some people to sleep over then my reaction to them wanting to occupy it would be me going to the police and report it.If the police does not help me then i will help myself by getting a cool gun and get rid of those who want to claim my space.Simple right?(i think everybody would do the same)
19 Mar 2008 14:52:40 GMT
Kosova Independence! I think they deserved it,after all what happened many years ago,and especially in '98 - '99.. We say "Bear til u lean back,then give your all against that"
Greetings from Belgium19 Mar 2008 18:20:01 GMT
Well, its good to show and accept your stupidity "Stupid Greek". Same for you Oxi. The main problem here is that the serbs were there and albanians just moved in to their lands. Serbs came in the only in the 6th century while albanians/illyrians had been living there for millennia. So who moved at who's house? Serbs came and colonized it and never in the region's history they exeeded 10% of the polulation. Greeks will side with anyone that's Orthodox.
Look at these sites: http://www.newint.org/issue24720 Mar 2008 12:35:00 GMT
This article has now been closed for discussion. Thanks for all your contributions.
13 Apr 2008 21:52:43 GMT
Actually this so called independent kosovo has not resolve the problem and will create more conflicts in the world. SHAME on the WEST lead by the US, Britain, Germany & FRance for disregarding international law and the UN. Shame on EU & NATO.